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Problematic Submertion Cooling

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Pf.Farnsworth

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2005
Problematic Submersion Cooling

At the sticky request of a senior member my "Submersion Cooling and its Problems, a short term cooling solution at best" shpeel:




Its a bad idea and it works very poorly with many problems and complication, completely impractical, costly, messy and frankly pointless. Unless just for show. Has been done many times but projects are plagued with problems and are not meant to last.

Cooling everything vs just the gpu/cpu gains nothing and is a waste of capacity where its it needed, it cpu/gpu.

And much more:

I almost went thought with this idea once and did months of reading and research and testing on the subject, I'll shear it with you. My idea was to use DD but to use the dielectric fluid to insulate. But you need the same information I needed. I have backed out of the project because it turned "uncool" very fast. This is NOT a project you want to do if you want something fun and flashy. I will talk about some problems as to why I backed out in favor of a chiller.

You can find many projects like yours online but you must keep in mind that most of them are non permanent, very messy and plagued with problems and maintenance. You won’t read any problems or any thoughts on most of what I will tell you because these projects are meant to last for about an hour then it doesn’t matter what happens.


MEDIUM:

Oils have very low surface tension and as a result leaks though just about every little microscopic crack possible.

It ruins capacitors and some other things.

It is also an extremely poor conductor of heat.

Oil breaks down when exposed to oxygen. Other mediums are even worse.

Fluorinert is the best option if you actually want this to cool and not cook your computer. Here is some information on it:

- Lower viscosity then water (flows better then water)
- Crystal clear and odorless
- The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC depending on type
- Relatively non-toxic
- Non-flammable
- It will permeate (leak) through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing so use metal pipes / metal enclosures etc.
- Heavy, 1 gallon = 8 pounds
- Inert (non-corrosive)
- High electrical resistance (can stop 30,000v) = 100% dielectric as for as you are concerned
- Almost nothing biological can grow or live in it
- About $225 per gallon
- Evaporates fast
- Saps plasticizer out of plastic (makes plastic *relatively* brittle over time)
- Does not dissolve rubber

Here is a good article on it and cooling:

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A little about PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert by YoueatLard

I see allot of people talking about this and inquiring about these substances. Few here but many that get into water-cooling come into contact with topics about it. I work with a variant of Fluorinert called FC-77 and figure I might shed some light on PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert products.

First of all this is a completely synthetic product. The only place I know of to buy it (new and free of contaminates) is from 3M though reclaimed Fluorinert may be purchased from various locations.

Fluorinert is an awesome product for cooling.
Yes it is similar to water but it has a lower viscosity. This is good and bad.
It is good because should move faster in a pump then water will. This helps to offset it's lower thermal conductivity and thermal capacitance.
It hurts because it will leak or permeate in systems that will hold air and or water. This is hurts because of it's price. You will have to use metal pipes because of this. It will permeate through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing. You will also want your pump inside a metal reservoir. I might recommend using copper tubing for it is fairly cheap and relatively easy to work with.

Also, yes flourinert will work in your Hydrocool or Eheim pump.

Fluorinert is heavy. Water is roughly 8 pounds to the gallon. Flourinert is roughly 14 pounds to the gallon. Why does this matter? Most places sell it by the pound.

Now for the pluses it was made for:
Fluorinert is inert. This means no worry of corrosion from using it. At work we've been pumping it through aluminum pipes with copper crushwashers for the last 30 years. Whenever I remove a part cooled by fluorinert I look inside it and inside the tubing and inspect for corrosion. The 95% of the piping I inspect has been inservice to 30 years and I've never seen or heard of corrosion being found in it. Ever looked inside a car's radiator after someone has put too much water in it and ran it for a 3-5 years?

Although fluorinert is non-corrosive but is not anti corrosive. It will not protect your system from anything else you put in it. It also will not mix (suspension, chemical, or otherwise) with water. To my knowledge it will not with oil, alcohol, or antifreeze. If you get it to mix with something post it and I'll fix this. Our pumps at work off of centrifugal force as does the Eheim.

Fluorinert has a high electrical resistance. You could put a wire carrying 30,000 volts in one side of a glass, a grounded wire an inch away in the other side and it wouldn't arc or short. Meanwhile the same setup with water would vaporize violently probably turning the glass into shrapnel.
Note: to the few of you out there that know how to generate 30,000 volts:
Don't try it.
You can submerge your computer in it if you wanted to and it would run fine. (People have tested this.) Whats this mean to you? If it springs a leak, the only hazard your computer faces is overheating from lack of coolant.

Fluorinert is crystal clear and odorless.

Fluorinert will work in extreme environments. We use it to cool aircraft electronics at altitudes of 28,000 to 33,000 feet using outside air to cool the radiator. This means the liquid will get extremely cold. Fluorinert's freezing and boiling point varies depending on type. The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC. This could be great for those who want to include a freezer, compressor, peltier cooling liquid through a water block, or dry ice in their liquid cooling setup.
Note: Liquid nitrogen can cool fluorinert outside of is operational temperatures and cause it to gel.

Two words: Non-flammable.

Almost* nothing biological can grow or live in it. I think they may have found one single cell organism that can survive in it. But nothing I've ever or will ever come in contact with will live in it.

Relatively non-toxic. If it spills on you the main concern in some environments is frostbite from rapid evaporation. It won't hurt your eye's, and if you breath it wont kill you. If you get it in your eyes, the main concern is dehydration. It will evaporate very quickly and take the fluid naturally in your eyes with it. This fluid naturally in your eyes allows dust and particles in the air to be wiped away without harm. So this is bad.

I could guess what you're wondering now.
So, if this stuff is so great why isn't everyone using it?

Well, remember when I said this stuff is heavy? The cheapest I've found it is $16 (USD) per pound. This comes out to $225 per gallon.
It also evaporates faster then anything I've ever seen. I saw someone accidentally spill quart into the open air 30 feet off the ground on a 100ºF day. It never hit the ground. Basically this stuff evaporates at several times the rate of alcohol at room temperature. It will also evaporate on a very cold day.
So, this added to it's leakage rate means you could easily be topping off your system once per month or so and that gets expensive.

Note:As I pointed out before these are completely synthetic products. They are more then likely unlike anything you've previously come into contact with.
While handling a face shield and non-porteous gloves should be worn.
If you do decide to use Fluorinert know what you are doing.
I recommend first looking it up in a MSDS. This is available online. Print it out and keep it handy. If an accident occurs this'll be the only way most hospitals will know what to treat you or your little ones for. Also hit 3M just for regular info.

Note²: If you plan on using any plastic in a system containing fluorinert plear refer to fluorinerts MSDS and look at all technical data published by 3M on it, also search the web for additional information. This means you don't want to put it in a plastic pump you want to keep and it will void the unit's warranty. This is because fluorinert reacts (eats) plasticizers.
Also I said before, fluorinert is heavy and that it is sold by it's weight. Do the math, this stuff is very close to the weight of concrete per square foot. This means it is not cheap.

Although I centered this around Fluorinert, both it and PerFluorcarbon are very similar. Closer then either and water.

http://www.houseofhelp.com/v2/showthread.php?t=25976&highlight=fluorinert
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Some of my "words of wisdom"

-You won’t find a cheap medium that is nice for this purpose. Things like transformer oil and vegetable oils at the other end, work but not very good by far. Horrible heat transfer properties and get extremely thick fast when get cold, some natural oils decompose and smell with time. The other end is high tech mediums like Fluorinert but those get very expensive, about $225 per gallon. Keep in mind most oils dissolve rubber, and your capacitors on your motherboard are sealed with a rubber ring. You need to cover them with something to protect them if you use oil. Yes there are substances that will not attack rubber, or so they claim. Very few in this field though, opticool doesn't, or so it claims. It was tested by a member here do a search on it. From what I remember he had no problems with it. But its not cheap either.

After a lot of research I settled on Opticool. If you want to do this Opticool is the way to go:
Opticool Brochure
Opticool MSDS
Opticool Technical Properties

-Also keep in mind that a lot of these oils and fluorinerts will suck the plasticizer out of your motherboard and most plastics, making them brittle.

READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS
-Be VERY careful with UV. Some oils and fluorinerts react and break down when exposed to UV rays. UV rays as in the neon and cold cathode lights people put in their computers to make thing glow in the dark. Oxygen doesn't do them well either so seal it up well and if not full to the top replace the air with something else like dry nitrogen. Oxygen will cause the break down of the oils and fluorinerts over time.
READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS

-Also keep in mind that if you ever want to swap parts you will have big problems. Your computer will never 100% free of the medium. Say good bye to the warranty, they wont take it back, and cleaning this crap off is virtually impossible.

-Use all metal piping and enclosures and weld or braze it together. If you use anything else fluorinert will leak right though your walls. And if oil it will leak in joints at least. One of the BIGGEST problems with oils and so on is low surface tension. Given the time a drop of oil will flatten itself to almost if not the thickness of one of its molecules. How thin depends on the oils surface tension but in oils its very low. Same goes for fluorinerts form what I know. What does that mean for you? If you have a clack or opening where air would not leak this stuff will. If you do some reading on these projects in a few days things can get very very messy.

-Make sure to get a chemical pump that can handle the medium and has the power to push it. Fluorinert will makes your normal plastic pump crumble like a rice cake, and wont have the power to pump thick cold oil. Either looking for an extremely powerful pump, large and loud, or an all metal chemical pump, also wont be quite probably.

-And one last thing. Temperatures. Make SURE your capacitors are rated for whatever temperature you will be running them at. They do fail if you go below. Find what capacitors are on your board, make sure you are good there, if not then go buy some that are rated for -70c (very cheap) and swap all the capacitors on your motherboard and cards.



-I looked for a long time and did not find any truly cheap medium that had a nice viscosity for pumping, good heat transfer properties, non harmful/toxic or deadly, non destructive to rubbers and plastics. Opticool as as close as I came to what we need. There are many other problems to deal with as well that are not cheap. If you want to be cool be prepared to dish out a lot of money or stop this project while you still didn't waste any money or time

-I wanted this for the cool factor as well. I wanted to have a window and see evaps on my cpu and 2 gpus and the whole thing swimming in a clear fluid. No dice bud. Why? Because you will get a lot of condensation on the window. You will have to wrap the whole thing in insulation. No window. You could make a double plane window if cold enough would have to pump hot air between the two planes but like I said this is going to get ugly very fast. You need to fabricate these windows, you need to pump the air inside, you need to heat the air, that all runs in to more electricity costs and becomes unpractical very fast since there are a lot of things like this and they all add up very fast. Sure there are solutions but they require more money, more fabrication, more time. This type of project is about as practical as a 5 stage -170C cascade ran 24/7. That and if you are using fluorinert no window at all.

And lastly PLEASE read all these articles and write ups about peoples experiences doing this. This will save you a lot of problems. You don’t want to learn on your own mistakes, its way too expensive. Learn on mistakes of others.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=802563&page=1&pp=20&highlight=Submerged
http://braineater.kicks-***.tv/worklog.html
http://www.overclockers.com/Tips187/

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060&page=2&pp=20
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52004
http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=222
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&number=1&artpage=1178&articID=296

Good Luck :toast:
 
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Great read, and ironically just what I was looking for at this time. :)

Where might one obtain Opticool and what's the pricing like?
 
Gautam said:
Great read, and ironically just what I was looking for at this time. :)

Where might one obtain Opticool and what's the pricing like?

Thanks. Good question, I never really found a supplier, but at that point I wasn't looking very hard. You might have better luck.
 
Opticool is not expensive...but they only sell it in 55 gallons at minimum direct. Dunno if they even have any suppliers. $220 for 55 gals, so $4 per gallon.
 
I understand that Submersion cooling isn't feasible but what about submersion insulation? That would through the whole thermally conductivity problem out the window. I plan on having a fully sub-zero system (CPU, GPS, NB, SB, MOSTEF, RAM) and insulating all that is a hassle.
 
I understand that Submersion cooling isn't feasible but what about submersion insulation?

It is feasible, just highly impractical and problematic. Its a interesting project if you want to make some temporary eye candy, but a poor long term solution for your main pc.

Same goes for insulation as all of the same problems come up, good eye candy bad long term solution.

I actually still plan to try again in the distant future when I have more time and money but the goal isn't reliable and effective cooling, more along the lines of "fancy lava lamp" I can show off to people that come by, much like the pretty shell on my book shelf.
 
Liquid Silicones?

I have done my research also and found what i believe may be the perfect medium for pc submersion, liquid silicone. Some have a very low viscosity and are inert to most all materials and is non corrosive. However i am not sure if it will begin to solidify with heat or contact with oxygen, i am currently awaiting an email back from a silicone supplier to check this. Feedback or suggestions?
 
Silicone caulk solidifies becuase it has an agent in it (a sort of acid for 2-part) or is hydrated or something (1-part). You can find silicone grease in which it never hardens. I know silicone oil is something every R/C racer uses for their shocks and differentials, it is not affected by temp changes much (if at all besides the extremes), and doesn't break down over time. They also can change the viscosity, such as 30wt used for shocks, 900wt used for diff's. I would expect it to be an electric insulator as well, since you can find types of silicone used for wire insulation.

Using a liquid as a condensation-killer is a great idea, since its already surrounded by a liquid :beer:
 
My future ultra cool submersed mod "SS OC"

My submersed design with lots o fans:

Edit: New design here.

SSOC.png
(still in design)I chose a very vibrant turquoise for the case to really give it that WOW affect. In the center of the case will be a sealed section full of TR-I transformer fluid with the mother board, RAM, video card, etc. submersed in it. The submersed section will be made of aluminum for maximum heat dissipation, and all available surface are on the outside of this section will be covered in heat sinks(not in pics). The fluid will also be pumped through a large radiator(1'x1' or greater: Car Oil Cooler Core) to help cool it. Five 80mm fans will blow air over the radiator, along with two 120mm fans, five 60mm fans, and nine 45mm fans blowing over the rest of the case & heat sinks. So I would say that this will be as much of an air mod as a submersed mod! I may even change the design to accommodate 2 mobos and setup a cluster computer, depending on my budget:(. Please comment, i would love some criticisms! Hopefully will be starting construction soon, I am also about to begin an Ozzy tribute case mod so it may be a while b4 i get to the SS OC.

Edit: I have since made a few major changes to the case design, unfortunately i lost all my data and will have to remake the case design so for now i'll describe.

-First off the side window on the case will be much bigger, pretty much as big as i can make it because i have move where the hdd and optical drives go to give me more room. The drives will now be on the side with the rad on it, this will allow me use less fans and thus make it quieter.

-The side with the rad on it will not have all those small fans on the back for cooling, instead i will have 4 250mm fans blowing air on the rad and drives, this will allow for lower rpms and less fans equaling maximum efficiency.

-The HDDs will also be in a sound dampended housing attached to the case and mounted to give direct contact between the hdds and the case for cooling.

Hope to have the new case designs up soon, these are the original designs below.

SSOCback.png
This shows the huge rad, the submersed section will be directly behind it.
SSOCcooling.png
 
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