Winbond BH-5......UTT BH-5???

Hi
I'm building up a new rig, and need some advice on memory. I've read that the BH-5 modules OC like hell, and saw the list of ram modules posted in this forum. Entries show Winbond BH-5, and UTT BH-5. Is there a difference?
I plan to go w/ a DFI board, due to all the frequency and voltage options in bios, with an AMD 64 3700 1mb L2 s939 (think this is a San Diego core). I'd like to get the FSB/HTT up around 250Mhz, and want to be sure the RAM can handle it.
Suggestions?

BH-5 and UTT BH-5 are very hard to find new. You probably need to buy it used. BH-5 usually clocked higher than UTT BH-5. UTT BH-5 has been known to kill the DFI for some odd reason. Your best bet right now is some good TCCDs. They should clock very high. Look into OCZ Plat. Rev. 2 or G.Skill TCCDs.

UTT BH5 doesn't kill DFI boards, the DRAM circuitry for the DFI boards past 3.3v kills DFIs (sans the ATI chipset model & Expert as those have that problem fixed.)

thanks for the correction, but due to people and the RAM wanting to go above 3.3V, the board cant handle that voltage and the board is gone.

UTT stands for UnTesTed. Instead of the manufacturers going through their normal testing and binning procedures, the chips were sold unbinned and blank. The various module makers purchased them in quantity (and cheaper), tested and binned them according to their own internal standards.

Original Winbond has withstood the test of time and is still considered by many as the first choice when wanting to run tight timings. With the memory dividers you can still run the ram with tight timings and your HTT at or over 300. Original Winbond BH-5 will most likely be able to hit your target HTT of 250 at 1:1 with 2-2-2-5 timings on the DFI, although it will probably require anywhere from 3.3v-3.6v, depending on how good the chips are. If you choose to lower the multi and go for higher HTT, then you will most likely need to use memory dividers in order to keep the ram in the 250-260 range where most max out. Very good BH-5 will run 270-280, but these are not common. There are even examples of some 2x512MB kits that have hit 290+ at those very tight timings (very rare) and just recently one of the guys over at XS was able to hit 300MHz with a 2x256MB set, but the last one is basically a one-of-a-kind set.

TCCD scales great, running both tight timings at 200MHz and in many cases over 300MHz at 1:1 with relaxed timings, while doing this in the 2.7v-2.9v range. It is still currently available at retail and is reasonably priced for the performance it provides. At your target HTT of 250 it will usually need timings set to the 2.5-3-3-6 range, perhaps 2.5-3-3-7 (but with only 2.6v-2.7v). As you can see, these timings do not match up to the BH-5 in this range, but the voltage requirements are much less.

Your choice really boils down to whether you want to run high HTT at 1:1 or run low latency and use the divider. This has been argued to no end as to which is better and it is somewhat influenced by the type of apps that you run. In the end there is equilibrium between the two approaches as far as performance goes and it really just becomes a personal choice.

Either way you go you will end up with a fine rig.

thanks guys, makes more sense now. I'd like to avoid using the divider, as i've heard that has a big negative effect on the AMD 64's. So I guess i'm looking for ram that'll hit 250Mhz at decent timings. I'll see if i can find any winbond bh-5...if not i guess i'll see what i can find in the ways of TCCD.

Do you guys recommend any sticks? I'd like to stay below $200CDN ($170USD) for 2x512Mb for a 1gb dual channel setup.

*EDIT* Found 2 options...

1. Found some Kingston HyperX here that the module list shows as having Winbond BH-5. It's $300CDN for 2gb.

2. OCZ EL Platinum PC3200 (2x512) OCZ4001024ELDCPER2-K here - looks like rev.2. List shows this as Samsung TCCD which can hit DDR600 in some cases. Also cheaper....only $190CDN.
Input?

Between those two I would go with the OCZ TCCD (make sure that they are not "v1.1" which is TCC5 and not TCCD...TCC5 is a DDR466 part, whereas TCCD is a DDR500 part, per Samsung's own internal binning process). The OCZ Plat Rev 2 were made with TCC5 for a while and are marked with a tiny, tiny (did I mention it was tiny?) "v1.1" just to the right of the "2-2-2-5" timings on the paper sticker affixed to the heatspreaders, the TCCD based modules will either not have a version number, or it will be marked as "v1.0".

The Kingston may have been Winbond at some time (Winbond ceased production of BH-5 in late 2003), but it could be anything as Kingston does not disclose the chips use and regularly changes ICs, as market pricing and availability changes.

Another choice for TCCD is the Patriot branded dual-rated PC3200/PC4400 "XBLK". These are rated at DDR400 with tight (2-2-2-5) timings and at DDR533 with relaxed (3-4-4-8) timings. These are generally in the $160-$180 USD range, sometimes even less.

G.Skill also has good TCCD, although some of theirs may come with TCC5. Please note that in many cases the TCC5 performs just the same as TCCD because in fact, they are the same chips, with the only difference being that the TCCD has been further binned by Samsung, therefore they are sold to the module makers at slightly higher prices due to the add'l testing done on them. You could very well end up with a TCC5 based module that has excellent chips that would have been rated as TCCD, had they actually gone through the binning process. Samsung just chose to stop binning as much TCCD due to the add'l costs involved.

It is my understanding that the Mushkin PC3200's rated at 2-2-2-5 also have TCCD but I am not up on their pricing.

By the way...the Classifieds are a good option for ram, as well, once you get to 100 posts. Keep this thread going and you'll have a 100 posts before you realize it.

Edit:
One last thing...the dividers, especially the 166 and the 180, do not create a huge performance hit on the A64s (unlike the AXPs, for example). I can link you to some articles that discuss/test this if you are interested. Don't discount ram like Original Winbond, just because of the divider issue...it is not an issue.

snagglebot said:

thanks guys, makes more sense now. I'd like to avoid using the divider, as i've heard that has a big negative effect on the AMD 64's. So I guess i'm looking for ram that'll hit 250Mhz at decent timings. I'll see if i can find any winbond bh-5...if not i guess i'll see what i can find in the ways of TCCD.

Do you guys recommend any sticks? I'd like to stay below $200CDN ($170USD) for 2x512Mb for a 1gb dual channel setup.

*EDIT* Found 2 options...

1. Found some Kingston HyperX here that the module list shows as having Winbond BH-5. It's $300CDN for 2gb.

2. OCZ EL Platinum PC3200 (2x512) OCZ4001024ELDCPER2-K here - looks like rev.2. List shows this as Samsung TCCD which can hit DDR600 in some cases. Also cheaper....only $190CDN.
Input?

Click to expand...

The Kingston is not BH-5, BH-5 is not manufactured in high enough densities for 1GB sticks. The OCZ Platinum Rev. 2 are back on TCCDs now, or so ive heard.

Interesting info...
I'll check for that tiny sticker when i go in to look at the ram. From what i've read here, i'll go w/ the OCZ and try my luck at getting TCCD.
I wouldn't mind checking out those articles you mentioned, as everywhere i've read the 64's take a big hit running a divider. Something about the lower FSB/HTT (as compared to Intel) causing the cycle times to not line up as often.
I'd definatly give that a read through. I've also read that tight timings are important to a 64, more so than to the Intels. Any thoughts?
*EDIT* 100 post eh?....better get to spammin

The ocz rev platinum 2s are now tccd according to OCZsteve... a rep for OCZ. I Just purchased a pair of Patriot xblk from newegg for $135.00 after rebates...

good info thanks reefa

snagglebot said:

Interesting info...

I wouldn't mind checking out those articles you mentioned, as everywhere i've read the 64's take a big hit running a divider. Something about the lower FSB/HTT (as compared to Intel) causing the cycle times to not line up as often.
I'd definatly give that a read through. I've also read that tight timings are important to a 64, more so than to the Intels. Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

Let me state this clearly, so that there isn't any confusion...the very best performance comes from 1:1, but on the A64s, unlike the AXP, using the upper end dividers like the 166 or 180 does not give you as big a performance hit (as you stated above) as it would have on an XP rig. The hit does get bigger, however, as you go down the line and start using the 100 or 133 dividers, for example. These should be avoided if you are seeking high-end performance.

If you have ram that runs tight timings and will hit 250-260MHz (like any decent BH-5 will), then using the dividers to hit high cpu clocks will still give you very good performance. You have to consider your entire system and make sure that it is compatible...does no good to have ram that will run 320MHz if your board craps out at 280, does it. You don't have any real bottlenecks in your planned rig so you have the option of going either way...and if you can find some good clocking BH-5 or some UTT (CH die) like the early OCZ VX, then with the higher multis available on the 3700, you could perhaps even run in the 270s at 2-2-2-5. It would take TCCD running at the 300MHz and beyond to equate to those numbers.

Here is a summary quote from an article that you might find interesting.

To summarize, memory dividers are a perfectly acceptable way of maximizing system performance, as CPU clock is the factor around which everything revolves, HT link speed is not of great importance (even 600 MHz ought to be enough for 99% of users), and the absolute best way to squeeze performance out of your K8 system is to avoid the use of a memory divider, though that requires high-end memory.

Source:
http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Guides/athlon64oc/

Here is another summary quote.

So what does this all mean in the end? You don't need to have the fastest and most expensive memory in order to have excellent results. There is no shame in running a divider and keeping the 1T command, of course it would depend on the HTT set and the CPU clock. Dividers are finally working in an AMD system and they work great. Obviously, if you can afford it, buy the best memory possible and pump up the HTT and keep the 1T.

Source:
http://www.insanetek.com/review.php?id=10

Again...yes its best to run 2-2-2-5 at 1:1, but if you have to use the dividers, you won't be at the bottom of the performance ladder by any stretch of the imagination.

Keep in mind, too, that is is easier to run 250 at 2-2-2-5 and use dividers than trying to run 300+ at 2.5-3-3-7.

And as I've already stated...either way will give you great results.

Good points.
I didn't even consider a divider, but i think once it's all set up i'll try a few combos and run some benchmarks. I plan on picking it all up this weekend...i'll update this thread as i progress. Thanks again for all the great info reefa.

thanks again reefa and snagglebot.

ok.....
i picked up some G.Skill Winbond (linked below). The stuff is expensive, and won't be shipped for a week or so. Give me your opinion on this mem....if i should cancel or not. I can live with the price if the modules are as high quality as i think they are.

linky

I've got a gig of it. It hits 250 no prob.

Well, I waited for about a month....still B.O.'d. Scrapped that.
I've now ordered 2x1GB Mushkin Black PC4000 from NCIX.... They won't clock nearly as high, but i'm going to take reefa's advice and try async. Should be hear in a few days. Hopefully....