View Full Version : back to crt!
shhhpark
05-26-06, 08:01 PM
well my first monitor was a crappy crt like 8 years ago then bought lcd and after 3 of them finally im coming back to crt. for years i played cs on a lcd but now realized how much i dislike it. i bought a Viewsonic G220FB 21 inch. it's pretty big but cant wait to be playing games on a crt again. i bought it for 125! and it's in beautiful condition. he's a graphic designer who barely ever used the monitor because he got a mac and didnt need it. :clap:
I agree that a CRT is much better for fast paced games like CS. It's definetly harder to aim precisely with only 60 fps on an LCD. You don't have to put up with dead pixels either.
RJARRRPCGP
05-27-06, 01:53 AM
i bought a Viewsonic G220FB 21 inch. it's pretty big but cant wait to be playing games on a crt again. i bought it for 125! and it's in beautiful condition.
Does it put out a lot of heat? You may be required to put a fan on the top of it!
That's the problem with CRTs. Also, it could easily comsume 130 watts!
I agree that a CRT is much better for fast paced games like CS. It's definetly harder to aim precisely with only 60 fps on an LCD. You don't have to put up with dead pixels either.
But the room one saves is priceless when you dont have much room to spare
I think the space the CRT takes up is worth it for the superior picture. It really depends on your needs though, and what you use your computer for. I dont think an LCD can compete at all for online gaming.
I think the space the CRT takes up is worth it for the superior picture. It really depends on your needs though, and what you use your computer for. I dont think an LCD can compete at all for online gaming.
yeah for online FPS, the CRT wins hands down, for anything else LCD is the sure way to go, especially with the drastic price drop that has hit the lcd market
Internal
05-27-06, 02:25 AM
My 19" Professional series viewsonic flat CRT has NOTHING on my 19" 2ms viewsonic LCD VX922 I just ordered.
The LCD is just as fast as my CRT but the LCD has a sharper more quality image.
No dead pixels on my viewsonic. We sell veiwsonic at my work we've hardly seen a dead pixel.
I just bought a Viewsonic VX2025 20.1 Widescreen and I have a dead pixel right in the middle of the screen. I think I have another one as well towards the right of the screen. Pretty irritating after spending $345 for it.
I just bought a Viewsonic VX2025 20.1 Widescreen and I have a dead pixel right in the middle of the screen. I think I have another one as well towards the right of the screen. Pretty irritating after spending $345 for it.
can u send it back?
I'm going to check into it. I bought it at Newegg, and they have a Policy where you need to have at least 8 dead pixels for a replacement or refund.
I'm going to check into it. I bought it at Newegg, and they have a Policy where you need to have at least 8 dead pixels for a replacement or refund.
thats why i like Dell for its customer service, u get 21-30 days to send it back if u arent happy with the product
I actually was looking at the dell 20.1" widescreen. I liked the fact that it swiveled, and could be flipped into portrait mode. I read about the banding issue that seems to be affecting all the screens of that model, so I decided on the Viewsonic. I switched from a 19" Viewsonic GS790 that has been very good to me.
I actually was looking at the dell 20.1" widescreen. I liked the fact that it swiveled, and could be flipped into portrait mode. I read about the banding issue that seems to be affecting all the screens of that model, so I decided on the Viewsonic. I switched from a 19" Viewsonic GS790 that has been very good to me.
i went right for the biggest and baddest, 2405...few mths later the 3007 came out :(
each monitor has some kind of problem...nothing in this world is perfect
My 19" Professional series viewsonic flat CRT has NOTHING on my 19" 2ms viewsonic LCD VX922 I just ordered.
The LCD is just as fast as my CRT but the LCD has a sharper more quality image.
No dead pixels on my viewsonic. We sell veiwsonic at my work we've hardly seen a dead pixel.
Just as fast as your CRT? Please :-/ 2ms does not mean its always running 2ms in fact it averages 10ms if you read Toms Hardware review on the VX922, a CRT always stays well below 1ms ,You also fail to mention the fact a VX922 is a 6bit panel so no smooth color gradients for you (dithering) a CRT is capable of infinite color.
Then you have the fact CRTs can run at a higher refresh (higher max framerate w/ Vsync ,less screen tear with Vsync disabled), can run multiple resolutions without image quality loss and better black levels.
Anyhow I'd much prefer my 24" FW900 CRT over any LCD ive seen on the market, To each his own.
chr0nicles
05-27-06, 09:37 AM
Just as fast as your CRT? Please :-/ 2ms does not mean its always running 2ms in fact it averages 10ms if you read Toms Hardware review on the VX922, a CRT always stays well below 1ms ,You also fail to mention the fact a VX922 is a 6bit panel so no smooth color gradients for you (dithering) a CRT is capable of infinite color.
Then you have the fact CRTs can run at a higher refresh (higher max framerate w/ Vsync ,less screen tear with Vsync disabled), can run multiple resolutions without image quality loss and better black levels.
Anyhow I'd much prefer my 24" FW900 CRT over any LCD ive seen on the market, To each his own.
beat me to it :D
boris_37
05-27-06, 12:04 PM
Just as fast as your CRT? Please :-/ 2ms does not mean its always running 2ms in fact it averages 10ms if you read Toms Hardware review on the VX922, a CRT always stays well below 1ms ,You also fail to mention the fact a VX922 is a 6bit panel so no smooth color gradients for you (dithering) a CRT is capable of infinite color.
Then you have the fact CRTs can run at a higher refresh (higher max framerate w/ Vsync ,less screen tear with Vsync disabled), can run multiple resolutions without image quality loss and better black levels.
Anyhow I'd much prefer my 24" FW900 CRT over any LCD ive seen on the market, To each his own.
LMAO OWNED
[SaS]hornet
05-27-06, 12:43 PM
this post has really make me think. i am gonna get a new monitor next month (have a 17" relisys crt atm 1280x1024 60hz max....) and have had my eye on the 2005 from dell (£295 off ebay) or the ben-q 20" wide for £302. the problem is, crt monitors are very expensive over here and its very hard to find a decnt w/s model for under £400
I waited forever to get an LCD monitor and then I saw the BenQ fp93gx with the 2 ms response time. I read the reviews on it and decided that I would go ahead and get it.
It finally arrived and I hooked it up, eager to see how good it was going to be, started BF2 and I couldn't beleive it. There was DEFINITE ghosting, if that's the right term. When I would turn rapidly left and right it would get blurry, is that ghosting?
I was soooo angry.
How can everyone who reviewed this monitor not have seen ghosting when they were playing games?
Maybe I just expected too much but I'm disappointed with this monitor and I guess LCD's in general.
Like someone above said, LCD's are real nice for anything but gaming.
I waited forever to get an LCD monitor and then I saw the BenQ fp93gx with the 2 ms response time. I read the reviews on it and decided that I would go ahead and get it.
It finally arrived and I hooked it up, eager to see how good it was going to be, started BF2 and I couldn't beleive it. There was DEFINITE ghosting, if that's the right term. When I would turn rapidly left and right it would get blurry, is that ghosting?
I was soooo angry.
How can everyone who reviewed this monitor not have seen ghosting when they were playing games?
Maybe I just expected too much but I'm disappointed with this monitor and I guess LCD's in general.
Like someone above said, LCD's are real nice for anything but gaming.
i run the 2405 by Dell, im not getting any ghosting at all...
mdameron
05-27-06, 01:16 PM
LCD gamer here... DoD:S, DoD, AOE3; perfection.
Priorities are different for everyone though... My top two were space and weight. (college student who moves 3 times a year at least and rents small rooms from people)
My benq 19" 8ms looks GREAT (fp91g+ IIRC), much better than the viewsonic crt it replaces.
I think I'd punch someone in the throat in real life if they said "better levels of black"... thats pure internet hardman right there, LOL. Seriously, say that out loud... "better levels of black". And then "I can't aim right if I'm under 60 frames per second"... LOL our hobby is much better as typed words on the screen... it's much too trivial to have real conversations and complaints about :/
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 03:28 PM
People worried about a few ms difference between a CRT and LCD are crazy. Just using a different server can make more difference than your monitor.
Play an online FPS at 100 FPS, then go to 60 FPS. There is a major difference in how fluid it feels, especially on a CRT. I think we have every right to complain when we are spending the kind of money we are.
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 03:35 PM
You mean assuming I had the hardware to even accelerate a game to 100 FPS. I don't really have the space for a full CRT anyways. I love my Sony Xbrite monitor, it provides a glossy CRT like picture.
But a few ms difference is not significant to the delay between you and your server.
I dont play many of the latest games. I play CS and TFC mostly. Sometimes I'll play CS:S, and other HL2 mods. Coming from a CRT and playing CS and TFC at 100 FPS, I can say that there is a world of difference playing at 60 FPS on an LCD.
You guys must have superior vision. Incidentally, I have 15/20 vision in both eyes (yes, thats better then 20/20), and I have absolutely no problem with my LCD, and love the colors, the response time, everything. I could never go back to a CRT again, NEVER.
Read some articles from 2004 about LCD's. At that time people were so happy to get 16ms, and that was considered perfect for gaming. In fact, most people say that under that the human eye cannot really see the diff.
Now, people are actually crying about 12ms and want 8ms, and they call it ghosting, and they complain about 60fps. Give me a break.
There is only one drawback to older LCDs, and that is the refresh rate in Hz, and the limit of 60Hz on high resolution (actually, CRT's have the same problem). But this has nothing to do with 60fps, because that is more then enough, it can only become noticable on various backgrounds on large monitors (like when viewing the grey background on this message board on my Dell 24", I can definitely see some flashing which is not there on a refresh rate of 85Hz.
But in games!?!? 60fps steady and 12ms is not enough for you? Wowz.
i went right for the biggest and baddest, 2405...few mths later the 3007 came out
each monitor has some kind of problem...nothing in this world is perfect
And the worst thing about the Dell 2405 is that it has no remote. I can hardly believe that. I really want to be able to shut it down (or put it into standby) via remote and of course change video modes! Even if I could only do that it would be ok. But really, why couldn't they just make a remote that could control all the settings, all they would need is 5 buttons, just like on the monitor itself (arrows and all). ARGH!
Just because you can't see a difference, doesnt mean other people can't. Some people are comfortable looking at a CRT at 60 or 75 hz, while others find it a strain.
lancingfury
05-27-06, 04:05 PM
agreed. went from a 60hz crt monitor running games at ~120fps (granted the monitor could oinly display 60 fps, so some were dropped), and a bunch of eyestrain and flickering, to an lcd. with the crt i thought i was losing my sight because i was having such bad eye problems with it. after switching to an envision 19" widescreen lcd for about 250 bucks, still 60hz, 8ms response rate, i notice -no- ghosting, -no- dead pixels, and -no- flickering, and, best of all, -NO- vision problems anymore as long as i leave the brightness at 50%. i'm quite happy.
And the worst thing about the Dell 2405 is that it has no remote. I can hardly believe that. I really want to be able to shut it down (or put it into standby) via remote and of course change video modes! Even if I could only do that it would be ok. But really, why couldn't they just make a remote that could control all the settings, all they would need is 5 buttons, just like on the monitor itself (arrows and all). ARGH!
its not a TV its a monitor, which u sit infront of arms length, so why would u need a remote?:shrug:
see what im getting at?
It's an American thing.
lol, are we getting this lazy :shrug:
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 04:17 PM
According to this website (SDM-HS75P/B), the human eye cannot perceive more than 70 FPS.
If you do the math, a 12ms LCD = 83.3hz
http://www.loopfamily.net/images/Hosting/Computer/math.jpg
83 Hz equals a maximum display of 83 FPS. So, I think it's your imagination that CRTs are that much better.
The downside of CRTs is that they refresh line by line (unless you have an interlaced). This can cause a flickering sensation or head aches.
Im basing my findings on first hand experience, not what one website tells me.
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 04:22 PM
Im basing my findings on first hand experience, not what one website tells me.
Would you like me to list more websites?
According to this website (SDM-HS75P/B), the human eye cannot perceive more than 70 FPS.
If you do the math, a 12ms LCD = 83.3hz
http://www.loopfamily.net/images/Hosting/Computer/math.jpg
83 Hz equals a maximum display of 83 FPS. So, I think it's your imagination that CRTs are that much better.
The downside of CRTs is that they refresh line by line (unless you have an interlaced). This can cause a flickering sensation or head aches.
thats what made me switch faster to LCD and and the radiation it posed
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 04:23 PM
I should have said non-interlaced.
I'm not even sure if they exist.
Would you like me to list more websites?
Its simple, its a personal pref. thing. Either LCD or CRT. Gamers swear by them.
Internal
05-27-06, 04:31 PM
My viewsonic PF790 CRT is pretty damn good and again the image quality on the LCD is sharper.
I notice Zero ghosting in the games I play.
Are you telling me 75hz at 1280x1024 on a VX922 viewsonic is NOT good enough for you?
Ya right.
nd4spdbh2
05-27-06, 04:47 PM
i must agree.... crt's are definetly the way to go for fast paced games... i have a ****ty dell 17in crt and it will go up to 120hz but i usually keep it at 85hz for cs and bf2.... I can TODALLY tell the difference between 85 and 60 fps... **** i can tell the diff between 85 and 75.... but i also hate the response time of lcd monitors... even 4 and 2ms ones...
CRT gets my vote.
maddog39
05-27-06, 04:54 PM
YOu can get LCDs that are great for gaming, you just need to know what to look for. The best LCDs for gaming have a max of 5ms, its actually recommended that you get s 2 or 3ms monitor and they say that eliminates ghosting and what not.
You are still limited to 60 or 75 fps on an LCD.
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 05:52 PM
5ms = 200Hz
Wouldn't that be 200 fps?
itshondo
05-27-06, 06:29 PM
Have no problems with my 4ms Acer AL1951C 19' LCD- no ghosting at all, tested with UT2K3 and 3DMark.
Worth a look if widescreen not important.
5ms = 200Hz
Wouldn't that be 200 fps?
The monitors refresh rate limits how many FPS you see when Vsync is enabled ..so if you're running 60hz refresh thats 60FPS Max. If you run without Vsync then you'd have no limit on framerate but the screen tearing would be unbearable at 60hz / 75hz especially if you're in the 100+fps range.
Once the framerate exceeds the monitors refresh rate thats when screen tearing occurs.
My viewsonic PF790 CRT is pretty damn good and again the image quality on the LCD is sharper.
I notice Zero ghosting in the games I play.
Are you telling me 75hz at 1280x1024 on a VX922 viewsonic is NOT good enough for you?
Ya right.
Hrm well the PF790 is rated .25mm pitch which is kind of bad for an Aperture grille CRT, this tells me its probably not very sharp in higher resolutions (Definitely not a high end model) My Sony G520P is .24mm and looks great at 1600x1200, also my FW900 is .23mm and looks great at 1920x1200 @ 98hz desktop resolution. I run games at 1600x1024 (16:10 aspect) or higher depending on the game.
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 07:16 PM
The monitors refresh rate limits how many FPS you see when Vsync is enabled ..so if you're running 60hz refresh thats 60FPS Max. If you run without Vsync then you'd have no limit on framerate but the screen tearing would be unbearable at 60hz / 75hz especially if you're in the 100+fps range.
Once the framerate exceeds the monitors refresh rate thats when screen tearing occurs.
Which is why I was saying you could run a max of 200 FPS with an LCD that has a maximum response time of 5ms.
Which is why I was saying you could run a max of 200 FPS with an LCD that has a maximum response time of 5ms.
Er sure you could but it would look terrible due to the lower refresh rates. The majority of LCD users run with Vsync enabled.
jeepguy_1980
05-27-06, 08:08 PM
Well the specs for mine (Sony SDM-HS95P/B) says it has a vertical refresh rate of 48-75Hz. I'm assumming that 75Hz is ok to run it on. I just realized I had it set to 60Hz and so I just upped it to 75Hz.
Link to my LCD specs (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/+INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Print?ProductSKU=SDMHS95P%2fB)
its not a TV its a monitor, which u sit infront of arms length, so why would u need a remote?
see what im getting at?
No, in fact, it makes no sense whatsoever. I like to play my computer games in comfort, I like to watch my shows and movies in comfort, and hate to switch modes and settings manually. A remote would be a wonderful addition. If you don't agree, fine, but I'll never understand it. I guess there are people who wouldn't want a sunroof and powerlocks on their car even if they were free, but I am not one of those.
Regardless, the whole "CRT is better for gaming" is hogwash, in fact, its brainwash from the online community which has to have some kind of elite way of thinking that is outside the norm. As I said, I've used CRTs, and still have a couple, I cannot even stand looking at them anymore after I finally got my LCD (I was a holdout, had my CRTs all through the 90s and until 2005!!! My first LCD ever was this 2405.
One thing I will agree with tho, at 60Hz, a CRT is absolutely horrible, almost unwatchable, whereas an LCD at 60Hz is totally managable. I still do wish that the 2405fpw was able to have a higher then 60Hz refresh rate at its native res, but then again, I don't notice any problems at all.
I guess for all the CKs out there with godly vision, nothing will ever be enough. I won't be surprised if in a couple years 8ms will be for panzies and kids will be saying "How ta hell can you play a game on 8ms, I can't stand it, get this 2ms instead!" Companies are truly masterful in their art of deception.
It really is not fair to compare scanning frequency on a CRT to that of an LCD. Anyone with an electronics background will see this comparison is not equal. A CRT monitor requires an electron gun to fire a pulse at a specific pixel at a designated frequency. If that pulse is not generated, the pixel is completely OFF.
An LCD works completely opposite, in that its pixels are always ON and set to a specific color. That color merely gets updated relative to the LCD refresh frequency. This requires, a lower frequency, because you do not need to keep the pixel illuminated(the backlight does that), but rather keep the color information.
This difference alone, is a major factor for LCDs being much brighter than CRTs, and for CRTs to have much better black levels. An LCD cannot truely reproduce BLACK, because of the backlight. This is also the reason, why CRTs have much higher refresh frequencies.
A little off-topic, but, the power to our homes run @ 60Hz AC. Its a conspiracy :p
jeepguy_1980
05-28-06, 01:01 PM
Why can't you compare the refresh rates? Both rates refer to the amount of time one or all pixels are updated per second. The 60Hz CRT is updating each pixel line by line but goes extremely fast and updates each line 60 times per second. The 16ms LCD (62Hz), is updating the entire screen at once but also at a rate of 60 times per second. Either way, all pixels are updated the same number of times for the same refresh rate.
The US uses 60Hz b/c it's the most efficient frequency for 3-phase generators.
By the way, I am in my senior year of undergrad EE studies.
As far as comparing rates, my statement was based on a "visual" aspect between the 2 types. Yes, the rate at which a pixel changes color can be directly compared between the 2, but the pixel on the LCD stays lit until the next refresh cycle. A CRT pixel completely shuts of for that 1/60th of a second. Its a case of flipping multicolor light bulbs on/off vs one that is just changing colors. This is what I meant by "not directly comparable".
Good luck with your studies.
I finished my studies years ago. Long road but very rewarding if you like designing new gadgets.
jeepguy_1980
05-28-06, 05:33 PM
Actually, I'm in the Navy and likely will never use my degree. They're just sending me to college for a couple years.
i was set to grab a widescreen monitor for around $300-$350 but I am still so torn about it especially after this thread lol. the dell one has problems and that leaves a 20.1 benq and 20.1 viewsonic...
Regardless, the whole "CRT is better for gaming" is hogwash, in fact, its brainwash from the online community which has to have some kind of elite way of thinking that is outside the norm. As I said, I've used CRTs, and still have a couple, I cannot even stand looking at them anymore after I finally got my LCD (I was a holdout, had my CRTs all through the 90s and until 2005!!! My first LCD ever was this 2405.
hogwash? Well I base my opinions on actually comparing LCD's next to my CRTs but you can go ahead think what you want , Anyhow the 2405FPW suffers from input lag (which is different from response time) so I *definitely* wouldn't want one of those for a gaming monitor.
FW900 CRT vs. 2405FPW pic (http://ded.zenblue.net/FW900/FW900_2405FPW.jpg) :cool:
twEEkerAreUs
05-29-06, 04:34 AM
hogwash? Well I base my opinions on actually comparing LCD's next to my CRTs but you can go ahead think what you want , Anyhow the 2405FPW suffers from input lag (which is different from response time) so I *definitely* wouldn't want one of those for a gaming monitor.
FW900 CRT vs. 2405FPW pic (http://ded.zenblue.net/FW900/FW900_2405FPW.jpg) :cool:
FW900 is my dream monitor, some day I will own one haha. :cool:
shhhpark
05-30-06, 12:15 AM
dont get me wrong my viewsonic widescreen lcd looks 100x more beautiful than my crt but the crt feels more responsive and the registry feels better in cs honestly. maybe its just me
nachosyumm
06-01-06, 01:29 AM
A monitor can only do so much if you suck at gaming.
I was planning on converting to a lcd this summer. I have seen all the lcd's at stores and stuff and i have no difficulty looking at them for awhile. However, none of my friends use a lcd so i do not know what they are like for gaming. I currently run my crt at 85mhz, although i am fine with 75mhz. Does anything think i will notice a difference. I tend to be less sensitive to fps. I was planning on getting a 20.1 inch widescreen.
I was planning on converting to a lcd this summer. I have seen all the lcd's at stores and stuff and i have no difficulty looking at them for awhile. However, none of my friends use a lcd so i do not know what they are like for gaming. I currently run my crt at 85mhz, although i am fine with 75mhz. Does anything think i will notice a difference. I tend to be less sensitive to fps. I was planning on getting a 20.1 inch widescreen.
Don't mean to nitpick, but its not mhz, its Hz. Meaning, the monitor turns on/off 75 (or 85) times every second (per cycle, which incidentally equals one second). The human eye is not nearly as sensitive to light as the ear is to sound, so if you listened to a sound at 60Hz, you could definitely hear the "ticks" (in fact, much higher then 60Hz still), whereas its almost impossible to notice 60Hz when it comes to watching light turning on and off.
nachosyumm
06-01-06, 08:45 PM
hz and mhz seem exactly the same to me at 12:30 at night.
Right now my crt is really getting bad. I really want to just somehow make it completely fail so that i can get a new one since my parents wont let me buy a new one as long as the current one works.
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