looking for the perfect LCD panel [Archive]

batboy

05-18-05, 09:27 AM

This rambling post is just to put some of my thoughts to text. I was wondering if anyone else is in the same boat I'm in too. I really want a new monitor.

My 17" Samsung 710N has served me well, but I'm lusting for something bigger, faster, and better. Specifically, I'd like a 19" to 21" with true 8-bit color and 8ms response time, not to mention DVI input and native 1600X1200 resolution. But, it has to be for a reasonable price.

Ok, you can stop laughing now since you and I both know there is no such beast currently on the market. I was ready to pull the trigger on either the Acer AL1914smd (19", 12ms, 8-bit for a great price) or the Samsung 930B (19", 8ms, 6-bit for a decent price with current MIR).

The problem is, nothing in the 8ms range has 8-bit color and none of the 19 inchers have native 1600X1200 resolution. Once you get into the 20" to 21" panels, the response times suck and the price climbs.

Is there anyone with a crystal ball willing to predict the immediate future? Is there anything that will be available in another month or two that will be worth waiting for? Other thoughts? Have you seen a great bargain worth mentioning?

I'm tempted to bite the bullet and get a 20" to 21" and compromise with a slower response time. If it don't cut it for hardcore gaming, I can always dust off my 19" Sony Trinitron CRT (my g/f will get the 17" Sammy panel). Not sure if I'm ready for a wide screen yet. If you made it this far, thanks for reading and putting up with my rant.

batboy

05-18-05, 10:29 AM

I was just looking at the specs of the Sceptre X20G-Naga II (20.1" 16ms, 8-bit, 1600X1200). Looks good on paper. Has everything I'm looking for, although I was hoping for a little faster response time, but 16ms ain't bad. Price is pretty good at $535 plus shipping from newegg. I've just never heard about the Sceptre brand before which sort of worries me. I'm having trouble finding a reputable hardware review on this product. However, some of the customer reviews look favorable. Anyone have this monitor or know something about it or have a review link? Thanks.

tom10167

05-18-05, 10:33 AM

batboy

05-18-05, 11:00 AM

What's this about the 930B?

I have it and haven't noticed anything bad about the colors, just that they look vibrant, though the resolution isn't your favorite.

Then again, I don't see ANY difference between 16 and 32 million colors.

Does anyone?

The Samsung 930B is a great gamers panel. Even though it's 6-bit, they claim 16.2 million colors with dithering compared to the 16.7 million colors of true 8-bit. This don't sound like much difference and it's not for gaming and standard computer apps. But, watching DVD movies is the true test. The 8-bit panels are a little better. If you are picky and watch a lot of movies, this might matter to you.

tom10167

05-18-05, 01:33 PM

I see. I have a red/green deficiency(a little bit colorblind) I watch DVDs all of the time and don't notice a difference, but maybe others do.

So 8-bit is better than 6-bit? And I have a 6-bit?

batboy

05-18-05, 02:34 PM

Yes, the 930B is 6-bit with 2-bit dithering for 16.2 million colors. Don't sweat it if you are happy with the display. Like I said, it's sort of splitting hairs and only the really picky folks will notice. With the current crop of 19 inchers, the fastest true 8-bit panels are 12ms. Anything faster like 8ms will be 6-bit. If you want speed, you have to compromise a little. I figure this purchase will have to last a while, since I'll be doing some house remodeling soon. I want the best for my budget. I almost went to Best Buy yesterday to get a 930B. Starting to think I want a 20" panel now though.

The Diplomat

05-18-05, 02:37 PM

Tom.

"Better" is a relative term. Yes 8-bit panels display more colors and will generally look a little bit better. Whether or not it will be noticeable will vary from person to person. However there is always a trade-off. The 6-bit panels like our 930Bs have faster response times than the 8-bit panels and are also less expensive.

At least for now you get to choose very good speed and slightly worse color reproduction, or better color reproduction, slower response time, and increased cost. Those who want their LCD monitors primarily for Photoshop, CAD design or any color intensive application gravitate toward the 8-bit panels. Those who are big into FPS gaming and want speed above all else tend to choose the 6-bit panels.

There are new technologies right around the corner that promise better stats in both areas. However, if you decide to wait until the next big thing comes out, (as is often the case with computer components) you will always be waiting.

I personally really enjoy my 930B. But I got it primarily for gaming purposes in addition to internet browsing, e-mail, and occasional use of Word and Excel. For these applications I find it to be an excellent monitor. If you are heavy into CAD, Photoshop, or movie watching on your computer and are very picky about colors you may want an 8-bit panel LCD instead. Just keep in mind the trade-offs. My question to you would be whether you could even tell the difference without comparing it side-by-side against a good 8-bit panel monitor?

Rest assured you have a great gaming monitor. And even if you decide it is not the monitor for you it would be very easy to sell it on E-Bay for very close to what you paid for it. There are a lot of hardcore gamers out there that would be interested in exactly that type of monitor.

Hope some of this helps.

RoskO (_!_)

05-19-05, 02:28 AM

Just my 2 cents...buy 2 930b and be happy :). then you wont need your 1600x1200, and when you game your native res won't be hosed (having to run at 1600 isn't feasable for video cards on new games like upcoming BF2).

I just got 2....here's my rig :).

My dual setup (http://www.coloradogamers.com/images/newpc/sam2.jpg)

danman81

05-19-05, 03:37 AM

this is an excellent discussion, i would recommend the 2001fp or 2005fpw from dell mostly becuase of the great price. ebay has new ones for 400 for either one. 2005 has better response times/brighnbtess/contrast ratios and is wide screen, but 2001 has slightly more screen space, its personal prefrence i suppose. 2005 would be great for games if youre into that sort of thing.

batboy

05-19-05, 08:09 AM

Thanks for the heads up about those Dells on eBay. I didn't even think about looking there for bargains. Looks like some good deals, although I noticed lots of sellers are trying to rip people off on shipping costs. The Dell 2001fp is looking good and I've seen great reviews about it.

Not sure I want a wide screen at this point in time, although the bling factor would impress friends. Besides, the 2005fpw won't do 1600X1200. Not all games use wide screen format yet. Most of my movie watching is on the TV, although I sometimes watch DVDs on my computer. Maybe I'll see which model I can get the best deal on and go with it. Thanks again.

batboy

05-19-05, 08:25 PM

Ended up buying the Dell 2005fpw... even though I wasn't really looking for a wide screen. Found a deal I couldn't refuse. I saw where Mfjonny posted in another thread about slickdeals.net which listed that Dell had a 35% off coupon (offer expires 5-26-05) stackable with a $90 off coupon (offer expires 5-23-05) plus free shipping. So, I ordered a brand new Dell 2005fpw (20.1" widescreen 12ms LCD flat panel) for $397 shipped to my door. Regular price is $749, so this was a sweet deal. Woohoo!

Audioaficionado

05-20-05, 01:14 AM

Droban

05-20-05, 01:53 AM

Those Dells are IPS panels. IPS has 8bit color with speeds closer to those 8ms TN panels. You've made a good choice. I got a PVA panel because they are the best for movies. If I could have swung the bux, I'd have gotten the Dell 2405 and a 6800GT or U to drive it.

Okay what's the difference between IPS and TN.............and PVA.

How is an IPS with 8-bit color close to 8ms TN(like a Hyundai L90D+?)

Super Nintendo

05-20-05, 03:13 AM

go for the viewsonic 5ms typical would be very nice if you don't really need widescreen. its 19inch and 17 inch. if you want widescreen go for the dell and get it on ebay you can get a warrenty on there too from dell and its under 500. goodluck

batboy

05-20-05, 07:51 AM

Super, check out my last post. I ordered a 2005fpw from Dell for less than $400.

I don't know a lot, but the TN panels are the faster ones that gamers prefer, but they tend to be 6-bit when speeds get down to the 8ms range. IPS and PVA tend to have better image quality, especially for movies, but aren't quite as fast. So they aren't normally the choice for gaming. The Dell 2005fpw seem to be a good compromise and I couldn't pass up this good deal. I also read the sticky post about wide screens and that helped me decide to try one. Besides, my g/f encouraged me to get it too.

danman81

05-20-05, 08:27 AM

i think youre gonna like it batboy

2005 is a good choice, i wolnder what dual 2005's would be like? too wide? and what does everyeone think will be the next dell lcd? 30 inches? the prices would go down too, maybe next year?

tom10167

05-20-05, 08:45 AM

I would be very very surprised if we saw a 30" LCD from Dell by the end of the year. LCDs are tough to make big. I don't understand everyone's obsession with duals, you buy a widescreen so you DON'T have to buy duals. Unless you stacked them on top of eachother of course. :)

danman81

05-20-05, 11:14 AM

hello tom,

i meant next year sometim......, by holidays for 2006?

batboy

05-20-05, 11:31 AM

If you got cash to spend, how about a 42" plasma TV sitting on your desk connected to your PC?

danman81

05-20-05, 11:35 AM

If you got cash to spend, how about a 42" plasma TV sitting on your desk connected to your PC?

maybe if you live with your parents :)

i would also imagine a 30 in lcd will be quite expensive, at least as much as the 2405 model costs right now, i still think dual screens is the way to go if you dont play much games and do a lot of work or mutlitasking, and its a lot cheaper

Shuzzy

05-20-05, 12:51 PM

if dell released a 30"lcd right now it would be around $2000 i would say.

batboy, i think you made the right choice there. especially for that price. :thup:

Audioaficionado

05-21-05, 12:28 AM

Okay what's the difference between IPS and TN.............and PVA.

How is an IPS with 8-bit color close to 8ms TN(like a Hyundai L90D+?)http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide.html

batboy

05-24-05, 11:03 PM

Got my Dell 2005fpw 20" widescreen last night. I'm really lovin' it so far. Very impressive. I like the widescreen better than I thought i would. I used the Dead Pixel Buddy program and have zero bad pixels. I don't see any noticeable backlighting issues. I played Half Life 2 for about an hour at the highest resolution possible and there was no ghosting. Glad I got it... this LCD flat panel is staying on my desk. Thanks to all that helped me pick it out.

hitechjb1

05-25-05, 01:11 PM

I am deciding between the 2005fpw, 2405fpw and two 930B.

Hope that the 2005fpw "quality" (backlight) issue has been resolved.

Originally thinking about getting two 930B, but concern about it is being 6 bit and one (wide enough one) is always better than using two. Further a video card with dual DVI would not be needed.

The 2005fpw is good priced (~ $400 with coupons), but it cannot do natively 1080i HD. I suppose it can handle 720p HD.

I am considering waiting for the 2405fpw (on sale again hopefully) and spending ~$800 as it can handle 1080i HD in native mode and the 1920 x 1200 would have the same vertical resolution if I need to supplement an existing (still very good) display of 1600x1200.

In my situation, the 2405fpw would be more future proof and the 2005fpw is more a compromise for its good price. And I may have to consider another one down the road which may end up spending more money. Currently the 2405fpw, even on sale for ~$800, is not as cost effective as the 2005fpw.

Actually, I just ordered a 2005fpw and may cancel it and wait for a 2405fpw on sale.

Gaming is not primary usage and so 8 ms spec is good to have and not a must.

Can someone measure this (cannot find in dell specification):
What is the exact display width and height of the 2004fpw (NOT counting the display frame)? Is it exactly the same as the resolution aspect ratio 1680:1050 which is 1.6:1.

Any suggestions are welcome to help my decision.

batboy

05-25-05, 02:23 PM

hitechjb1

05-25-05, 02:53 PM

The 2405 would be awesome, but I could not justify $900 (currently the best deal I could find). So, the 2005 for me was the best compromise. I can measure the actual panel tonight when I get home if you want, but I do know the 2005 does fully support 1680X1050. I was playing Half Life 2 at that resolution and it filled the whole panel (no black stripes anywhere).

Yes, please measure the physical display width and height (without display frame) and I'd like to see whether its physical display aspect ratio is the same as the resolution aspect ratio of 1.6 (1680/1050). So objects are not displayed fatter or thinner physically.

BTW, can a 6600/6800/X800XL support natively 1680x1050 resolution. I do not see any 1680x1050 in my video adapter property (under display property) even I asked for the driver to show unsupported resolution for my current display.

One of my question/concern is that how the 2004fpw handles 1080i HD. Yes or No or by some means of scaling ... I like to get something flexible enough so at least it can handle 1080i and 720p HD if needed.

A more interesting found is that from the following anandtech thread, someone connected a HD tunner directly to the DVI of the 2005fpw at 1080i. If I understand correctly, the 2004fpw was able to "handle" the 1080i which is 1920x1080, probably not natively, but by some scalings of the pixel and refresh rate, .... (Maybe someone can explain this better).

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=1597509

batboy

05-25-05, 03:06 PM

Ok, I'll measure it tonight. I have a X800 XT vid card and when I installed the monitor, the computer was already running (I just unplugged the old monitor and plugged in the 2005fpw). At first, I didn't have the 1680X1050 resolution setting available either. I had to install the Dell monitor driver and then the higher resolutions magically appeared. Have you looked at the sticky post about widescreens?

batboy

05-25-05, 06:02 PM

Ok, I measured the viewable part of my 2005fpw panel... 17" X 10.5"... hope that helps.

P4mustangtime

05-25-05, 10:51 PM

hitechjb1

05-25-05, 10:56 PM

Ok, I measured the viewable part of my 2005fpw panel... 17" X 10.5"... hope that helps.

Thanks for the measurement.

So for the 2005fpw,
17 in x 10.5 in would give a viewable aspect ratio of 1.62:1 which I assume should be the same (within measurement margin of error) as the native resolution aspect ratio of 1.6:1 (1680/1050 = 1.6).
It has a pixel density of 100 x 100 per sq. in.

I measured also two LCD monitors:

A 20 in 1600 x 1200 LCD which is 16 in x 12 in gives a viewable aspect ratio of 1.33, the same as 1600/1200 = 1.33.
It has a pixel density of 100 x 100 per sq. in.

A 19 in 1280 x 1024 LCD which is 15 in x 12 in gives a viewable aspect ratio of 1.25, the same as 1280/1024 = 1.25.
It has a pixel density of 85.3 x 85.3 per sq. in.

I think for the 2005fpw, it has a 1:1 mode which can force full screen programs such as games to run in certain supported resolution without streching or compressing which can distort the aspect ratio of objects. E.g. if a game cannot run in the native 1680 x 1050 resolution, then set it to run in 1280 x 1024 mode with wide dark borders on the left and right (200 pixels each [(1680-1280)/2=200]) and small borders on the top and bottom (13 pixels each [(1050-1024)/2=13]).

There is also a mode to stretch X and/or Y to fill up at least one dimension of the display while keeping the aspect ratio constant (i.e. without distorting the object's aspect ratio). But it seems to me in this mode, pixel scaling is required and I don't know whether there is impact on response time (for gaming) and other visual performance.

There is a mode to fill up the entire display viewing area by stretching X and Y for a given application. In general, this would result in changing the original aspect ratio of the objects, making a circle to look like an ellipse. I would not use this mode at all.

batboy

05-26-05, 09:28 AM

I have a thought in asking you all - what are your thoughts about Viewsonic 19" LCD monitor? Today I went to Office Depot to have a look at LCD montiors and I saw that one - I think it was called "VX900" or something. Cost is $499 CDN - seems to be good to me. But I wonder how it functions when I play games and how does it handle when I do mulit-tasking programs?

Coffeetime, the ViewSonic VX900 has pretty good image quality (especially for watching movies), but unfortunately, the 25ms response time is not the best for gaming. For fast paced 3D games, you want at minimum 12ms or better yet, 8ms response time. Perhaps look at the Samsung 930B, Hyundai L90D+, Acer AL1914smd/AL1914smd-8, or ViewSonic VP191B. Not sure if you can order from Dell in Canada, but if so look at the Dell 2001fp 20" which has 1600X1200 native resolution.

Hitech, I'll play Medal of Honor Allied Assault and Half Life 2 tonight on my new 2005fpw with various resolutions and use the stretch mode to see if I can detect any problems.

P4mustangtime

05-27-05, 08:54 AM

Batboy, thanks for your advice - I'll have a look in the montiors you told me of that names. A salesman should be able to help me find the right monitor for gaming and working with programs. :cool:

hitechjb1

05-28-05, 02:26 PM

Received a 2005fpw yesterday. It is A02, manufacturing date May 05.

No dead pixel per DeadPixelBuddy.

The back light problem is pretty noticeable on three different large spots of about 3-6 inches wide (top left corner, middle top, bottom left corner) in some top and bottom area.

I put an ImageQuest L90D (pre L90D+ model) side by side with it, with both monitors driven by Windows XP using a complete BLACK background.

There is no back light in the L90D at all, even when the room is without light during night time and day time.

Further, the L90D back ground is much "darker" and uniformly black compared to the 2005fpw. Subjectively, I would say the 2005fpw is "20% less dark" compared to the L90D over the entire viewing area.

I tested also the digital and analog mode, changing the brightness and contrast, they all do not change the back light bleeding level in the 2005fpw at all.

When playing DVD at 1:1, with dark strip on the top and bottom, the back light bleeding of the 2005fpw is pretty noticeable by me and others.

Apparently for a few months, the back light problem has not been fixed to a level compared to other LCD's (e.g. Image Quest L90D, IBM L200p I tested). IMO, there may still be a manufacturing issue and so the back light problem may vary from unit to unit.

I am not sure whether I should RMA return or ask for another one, as I believe this is a manufacturing and QC issue and the next one may still have such problem to some level. Unlike the dead pixel which is a 0 or 1 problem, the probability of getting one unnoticeable (compared to the other LCD's) is probably less than 1/2. I don't want to keep exchange and waste my time and Dell's resources.

If taking into account the price of ~$400, the 2005fpw is the most cost effective LCD as of today, if the back light problem is tolerable.

Other than the back light issue, the wide screen is really a good thing to have than using two LCD's side by side. I was considering two SamSung 930B (same panel as a L90D+) before, but now I won't go dual display.

Another possibility is to get the less cost effective 2405fpw (~$900) whose resolution of 1920x1200 is perfect in many respect, for dual document editing, native 1080i HD, wide screen DVD, .... 1680x1050 is still a little tight in terms of width for me, 1920x1020 would be more perfect.

But I also heard that the 2405fpw may also have back light issue, so owners of 2405fpw please comment.

PS: The ImageQuest 930D typed earlier (typo) was meant to be an ImageQuest L90D.

AEsnowboarding

05-28-05, 03:00 PM

Received a 2005fpw yesterday. It is A02, manufacturing date May 05.

No dead pixel per DeadPixelBuddy.

The back light problem is pretty noticeable on three different spots (top left corner, middle top, bottom left corner) in some top and bottom area.

I put an ImageQuest 930D side by side with it, with both monitors driven by Windows XP using a complete BLACK background.

There is no back light in the 930D at all, even when the room is without light during night time and day time.

Further, the 930D back ground is much "darker" and uniformly black compared to the 2005fpw. Subjectively, I would say the 2005fpw is "20% less dark" compared to the 930D over the entire viewing area.

I tested also the digital and analog mode, changing the brightness and contrast, they all do not change the back light bleeding level in the 2005fpw at all.

When playing DVD at 1:1, with dark strip on the top and bottom, the back light bleeding of the 2005fpw is pretty noticeable by me and others.

Apparently for a few months, the back light problem has not been fixed to a level compared to other LCD's (e.g. Image Quest 903D, IBM L200p I tested). IMO, there may still be a manufacturing issue and so the back light problem may vary from unit to unit.

I am not sure whether I should RMA return or ask for another one, as I believe this is a manufacturing and QC issue and the next one may still have such problem to some level. Unlike the dead pixel which is a 0 or 1 problem, the probability of getting one unnoticeable (compared to the other LCD's) is probably less than 1/2. I don't want to keep exchange and waste my time and Dell's resources.

If taking into account the price of ~$400, the 2005fpw is the most cost effective LCD as of today, if the back light problem is tolerable.

Other than the back light issue, the wide screen is really a good thing to have than using two LCD's side by side. I was considering two 930B (same panel as a 930D+) before, but now I won't go dual display.

Another possibility is to get the less cost effective 2405fpw (~$900) whose resolution of 1920x1200 is perfect in many aspect, for dual document editing, native 1080i HD, wide screen DVD, ....

But I also heard that the 2405fpw may also have back light issue, so owners of 2405fpw please comment.

So is the 2005FPW better than a Hyundai ImageQuest L90D+?

hitechjb1

05-28-05, 03:15 PM

If you can tolerate the potential back light problem, then the 2005fpw is functionally richer than the L90D+.

Also for gamer, consider the spec of 12 - 16 ms for 2005fpw and 8 ms for L90D+.

Price-wise a 2005fpw on sale is about $50 more than a L90D+.

So evaluate them according to individual's situation and tradeoff, things are not always having a simple yes or no answer.

P4mustangtime

05-29-05, 10:05 PM

Coffeetime, the ViewSonic VX900 has pretty good image quality (especially for watching movies), but unfortunately, the 25ms response time is not the best for gaming. For fast paced 3D games, you want at minimum 12ms or better yet, 8ms response time. Perhaps look at the Samsung 930B, Hyundai L90D+, Acer AL1914smd/AL1914smd-8, or ViewSonic VP191B. Not sure if you can order from Dell in Canada, but if so look at the Dell 2001fp 20" which has 1600X1200 native resolution.

Went to few computer stores - incuding Future Shop, also few online shops in Canada. So far what I've found out: Future Shop in my local area only have 2 montiors ar 8ms for 19" size - Samsung 930B for $549.99 CDN and NEC LCD1970GX-BK for $599.99 CDN.

TigerDirect.ca have the Hyundai L90D+ in stock to order for $468-ish (call it $470 even), NCIX.ca also have this too for much lower price!

Looks like I've narrowed down to 2 montiors to decide which to buy! I'm gonna keep an eye for good sales on these models to grab while I can...
;)

hitechjb1

05-30-05, 11:49 PM

This is the back light problem that I mentioned in the previous post. There are three noticeable, big spots (top left, top middle, bottom left). It is like having two small reading light hanging on top of the LCD.

Notice also is the non-uniform darkness of the entire viewable area.

I don't know how bad this LCD comparing to other 2005fpw.

I have two other 19 and 20 inches LCD's (from two different manufacturers), they are completely and uniformly dark.

batboy

05-31-05, 12:59 PM

After I looked at the posted pics showing the backlight issue, I used the Dead Pixel Buddy black screen and darkened the room. Yes, I saw a little backlight bleeding through in the same spots as the pic. Perhaps it's not as bad as some of the other 2005fpw or maybe it just doesn't bother me under normal usage. I never saw it until I looked specifically for it. Needless to say, I'm keeping mine. All the good things about the monitor far outweigh a little minor backlighting around the edges of the panel.

hitechjb1

05-31-05, 05:47 PM

I showed two people the 2005fpw while playing a DVD movie so that the top and bottom part of the screen is dark. One did not notice and one noticed the back light problem without me pointing that out ahead of time. Both think the level of back light bleeding is unacceptable. The three back light spots each cover a pretty large area.

I think the level of back light severity depends on a particular LCD, it is probably hard to get rid off completely in general, otherwise Dell would have fixed that as it has been a known problem for months. The question for me is whether I should ask for another one to try or just return this one.

As I said before, my other two LCD's (different make) are "completely" dark and the dark ground are very uniform. What made the 2005fpw suffering from such issues, otherwise it would be a "perfect" LCD, especially given its sale price.